Background: A couple of years ago, I found a basic Delta 1 HP dust collector that someone was throwing away. It was in good condition and had the most basic filter bag/dust pump so I upgraded to a MERV 15 level canister filter. It worked great until the filter clogged up and then was a PITA to clean so I used it less and less and mostly went back to just using my shop vac for most things. I sold the Delta a few weeks ago and finally bit the bullet last week and ordered a new Onieda Air Supercell. I am a cheap bastard by nature but this is a buy once, cry once thing. They just started offering a Turbo model that has about 25% more suction but for a $700 (plus tax) premium. I really do not think I need the extra oomph so decided to save a few bucks here. The extra oomph also requires a 30 amp 240v receptacle rather than the 20amp of the original version. Not a big deal since I may have to add another circuit anyway.
Options: For those who have not looked at them, they basically come in 3 configurations : Wall mount with 3 different barrel sizes
Stand with 14 or 30 gallon barrel
And Cart with 14 gallon barrel
I do not really want to deal with bigger barrels so I am going to stick with the 14 gallon barrel. I will rarely feel the need for the extra capacity.
Where oh where do I put it. My shop is pretty dang full and one problem is that wall space is just as tight if not more so than floor space. I freed up some space when I sold the old DC and my goal is to eliminate my shop vac/cyclone setup and that frees up additional floor space so I decided that it would better to have a freestanding and mobile configuration that I can put anywhere in the shop where it will fit. Current thinking is that it will sit in about the center of the shop with an outlet overhead. That may be a later chapter of the blog. The Cart is the more compact of the free standing configurations but again my cheap bastard nature comes into play. The cart options adds another $700 including shipping and taxes -- starting to get above my cry once threshold. I might sob a little every time I walk out to the shop. Note I will will probably have to add an outlet near where I finally decide to put. Note that for now at least, my plan is to simply move the hoses from machine to machine and not run ducts but I may change my mind later.
I can do this. After studying the design, I realized that the cart version is basically just a wall mounted version attached to a metal stand. I decided that there is really nothing that difficult about it and I decided that I can make a cart for way under $700 so I ordered the wall mounted version. I drew up a plan in Sketchup using 2-by construction. The Supercell model in the drawing below was downloaded from the Sketchup 3D library so I do not know for certain that its dimensions are accurate but it gave me a model to design the cart around. I need to get the machine in hand to make sure that the dimensions I assumed are accurate but here is my latest iteration. If the link is working, you should be able to click on the drawing below and rotate around to see the design from any angle.
EDIT: I've updated the 3DW drawing to reflect changes I've made during the course of the discussion below. The JPEGs immediately below the 3DW rendering still reflect the original design.
So what do you think? Will it stand up? The specs say that the weight is 75 lbs, presumeably plus the weight of the sawdust in the barrel as it gets full (the barrell is pulled up off the ground when it is clamped in place). One question I have, other than will it hold the weight without being tippy, is whether there is any advantage to the way that they have the handle tilted and extend further back. In my initial design I basically extended the diagonal supports (at a steeper angle) to form a similar handle but it seems to me that it doesn't do anything to change the center of gravity and takes up more space so I simplified the design to eliminate the extended handle.
Just in case the web sketchup link above doesn't work on mobile (or something) or you just don't want to open it, here are a couple of JPEGs of the design.
From the back with the wheel hidden to show the joint on the bottom. The axle for the wheel will be epoxied into a hole that extends through the side and into the bottom stile. The 2 bottom stiles will probably be loose tenons and the top one is half laps.
--Nathan, TX. Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.
looks like it will fly to me. yeah if that cart adds 700 bucks 🤑 hell ya make your own the way you want it. if my big jet DC ever dies ill probably go to a super cell myself.
working with my hands is a joy,it gives me a sense of fulfillment,somthing so many seek and so few find.-SAM MALOOF.
I have played with rolling my own stand as well if I do end up getting one of these. My thoughts are almost a duplicate of yours for the build. I think mine would be taller though with the bigger sized drum. Dumping is a PIA so doing it less often appeals to me. I have used the hand cart like form on other DC units, and it is very stable. Using heavy poly wheels with run flat tires would be my choice for back wheels. In the past my fronts were just blocks of wood, that were sized to sit level. Unless you have a lot of weight, which this isn't, even full of dust, you can just lean it back, and maneuver it easily by simply shifting your hands left or right. Think moving hand cart with a refrigerator on it (much heavier). As long as the load is secured, it all tips and rolls just fine. Sit it back down and the front blocks make it sit stable.
I am a paper and pencil kind of guy, so using the Ketchup planner isn't in the cards, but I do like playing with their viewer. :-)
Talking wheels... personally fixed wheels are a pita.. directional move is limited... tilting just increases the footprint making it a PIta... and when you have hoses attached it becomes a PITA. I would opt for locking rotatable casters, as large as you can afford for the project... and if worried about COG due to additional height, outrig them, and you will eventually wanna move it... even if it's only a few centimeters.
If your first cut is too short... Take the second cut from the longer end... LBD
Just on the back side, with wood blocks for legs in the front to make it work like one of these. With a much wider, and deeper base of support. Pretty similar to the one Nathan showed.
Talking bout wheels... directional move with fixed wheels is a pita... if you tilt it, the footprint increases and is a PIta... and if there is a hose attached it becomes a PITA. I recommend as large a free moving, lockable caster as your project can afford. If you are concerned about the COG due to the additional height, may I suggest outrigging them, and I'm confident some time in the future you will need to nudge it just those few extra centimeters and thank me.
If your first cut is too short... Take the second cut from the longer end... LBD
I was basically mimicking their design with the hand truck approach. My goal is not to make it move like a typical shop vac where you drag it around the shop by the hose behind you but simply to make it portable when needed. Once it finds its home, I hope that the hose will give me most of the flexibility that I need so the location should be fairly static. I may need to be able to move it over the lip of the garage (about an inch) out to the driveway from time to time and with it being (looking anyway) top heavy, tilting it over a lip on swiveling casters could be a little treacherous. At least that is my concern anyway. The hand truck design seems safer without making the base considerably wider. I am trying to keep the width as narrow as possible and the outriggers with large castors may add 20 cm (~8") to provide enough space for them to fully swivel. One reason I am not mimicking their stand model is because of the larger footprint it requires. Thinking out loud, for larger castors, I could simply lower the mount point to accommodate larger casters. As long as they are not so large as to interfere with the drum as they pivot.
George, I was designing around these 10" wheels. I used them to replace some pneumatic wheels on a hand truck. They work well and are considerably cheaper than the ones you listed. I considered getting the 30 gallon drum too. There are several reasons that I didn't but the main one is that, while frequently emptying is a pain, lifting a full 30 gallon bag out of the drum or worse, moving and lifting a full 30 gallon steel drum to dump it, sounds like an even bigger pain, especially in my back. Another major concern is that designing a mobile cart that can support a full 30 gallon drum seems like a bigger engineering challenge. I think that you would want the stand design -- they have a version with longer legs for a 30 gallon drum but it takes up considerably more floor space because the legs splay out so far. The other reason is that the only place I could possibly hang it on the wall, should my cart prove not a good idea or I decide I want static ducting, does not have the head space required. It would sit under the rails for my garage door and you have to lift the entire cylinder (filter housing) and motor housing as a unit over the filter to mount it . You also may need to remove it from time to time for filter maintenance and replacement. The specs say that the unit with 30 gallon drum version stands 6'7" tall and , IIRC, you need about 2' of overhead clearance to slide the cylinder and motor over the top. You also have to be able to mount and remove that heavy component while standing on a taller ladder. It is probably marginally a one person job as it is and wrangling it a couple feet higher off the ground sounds like an even bigger PITA than emptying a 30 gallon drum.
Good stuff guys. I appreciate the brainstorming.
--Nathan, TX. Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.
Looks good to me. The only tipping risk I can see is if you were to tug on the hose enough to tip it. That is always an issue - it just takes a harder tug to tip a more stable design. I'd say you're good to go.
If I ever buy a new DC it would be the SuperCell. I have a 5 hp Oneida Gorilla now and works great but the higher static pressure of the SuperCell is great.
Thanks Steve. Tipping is one my concerns too but obviously something that could be an issue with their design as well. Even as it is currently drawn, It seems to me that the even with a high center of gravity, it seems like it would have to tip at least 6" before it would fall over, but that is just a guess.
Having non locking casters might also help by letting it move a little instead of tipping. If I also put casters on the back, it will move even more freely. I had one iteration where I splayed the horizontal supports out a couple of inches to widen the base a little. The angles obviously complicated the joinery a little but still doable. The biggest issue was having to deal with the large back wheels from rubbing against it so I abandoned the idea. This is where LBD's outrigger idea provides inspiration. Instead of splaying the horizontal supports outward, I could simply add a block on the end that allows me to move the front casters out a little. That could give me another 3" in width but still be within the width of the back wheels. Of course another option is to simply make the entire cart a little wider simply by making the stiles longer.
Here are the dimensions of their metal cart from the manual. My design is pretty close in width but the distance between the centers of the front casters is only 22" so it would be prudent to widen the front a bit by adding some blocks.
I added a couple of blocks on the sides and also doubled the diagonal support and here is same view of mine. My design also has the casters a little further out in front compared to theirs. I did that specifically to prevent it from being tipped forward while tugging on the hoses.
The casters are centered under the outside block. I added the additional diagonal, figuring that belt and suspenders are not a bad idea. Making sure the block is well attached with screws or dowels might be good enough.
If I also lengthen the stiles by 3 inches, those front casters will be 28" apart and the back wheels will be about 31" wide.
I sure wish that they would ship the dang thing so I could get the actual measurements. It has been over a week since I placed the order and still no shipping notification.
--Nathan, TX. Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.
Sorry Lazy, call it my ADHD or just senility, but those stripes are driving me crazy, I assume you downloaded the model from 3DW (or created it yourself), in case you would also prefer this, download the latest version (Sketchup File, not Collada) and use Eneroth's Open Newer Version plugin.
If your first cut is too short... Take the second cut from the longer end... LBD
I think you’re gonna be just fine with your design. It is a top heavy tool, but I don’t think it’s really too bad. I assembled mine by myself and it’s all manageable. Big tires help!
Ryan/// ~sigh~ I blew up another bowl. Moke told me "I made the inside bigger than the outside".
I think that is just a short trip so no surprise. 😉
Thanks, LBD, I have the last free desktop version of SU and downloaded the model from 3DW in Collada format which is why it is so ugly. It was Trimble's conversion to Collada format that made it that way. I may eventually give that extension a try, though for now, the ugly model met my needs. The fact that it was that easy to convert a newer version to an older software release is one of the things that pisses me off about Trimble. They could have provided that path forward but instead artificially make newer files incompatible to force people to pay extra for upgrades that do not offer significant improvements, IMO. Based upon my use of the current free web based version, they still haven't fix the issues of small scale designs related to 3D printing so I am slowly switching to OnShape because it is so much more powerful for that. Simple sketches like this one are quicker in SU, especially since I am still sort of learning OnShape but when I get the the DC in hand, I may make a stab at it in OnShape, if for no other reason that to practice OnShape.
--Nathan, TX. Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.
I've found that Eneroth's open version is a God send.... I just hate loose entities.
Trimble fucked up when the went large scale, making small items undrawable. I have got into the practice of upscalling x 1,000... that way I can change the unit from mm to m and work as normal.... then downsize x .001.
Onshape may be more friendly, but I'm too bloody old to learn new things... that's why I stay obnoxious.
If your first cut is too short... Take the second cut from the longer end... LBD
I've tried the Sketchup upscale trick but I invariably forget and enter something at the original scale and it disappears because it is microscopic at 1000th of the scale I should have used. After starting over a few times, I have up. I would rather learn something new than screw with that issue (bug). Besides, the parametric paradigm of the more modern CAD platforms is amazing when you do it right. Onshape has a bunch of free online lessons that even include exercises to drive home the concepts of each lesson. All of the lessons that I have done are excellent and even geezers can follow along. None of the lessons are very long so it doesn't take long to learn enough to start design things.
--Nathan, TX. Hire the lazy man. He may not do as much work but that's because he will find a better way.
We have a garden hose cart, and due to our tiny yard it needed to hold at least 350' of hose, and the kind we both like was 5/8". This put us with a lot of weight, and the "giant" sized cart we got held, and reeled the hose just fine, but the wheels were for chit. I replaced them 4 times before I put on the ones I listed. Even though they were HF, they absolutely kicked all the Amazoo, and other we tried to the curb, and now they have been on the cart, getting pulled all over the place, loaded to the gills, and without issue for 6 years now. Longest we got out of the brand X variety was 6 weeks type of deal.
So around 30 bux a wheel sounds like a lot, you will only cry once. They are much better wheels, just holding them in your hands, loaded they are the ones to get. I don't think this cart will have that kind of weight, but for 60 bux, you are guaranteed they will last forever. Also they are run flats, so every time you do move it, they will roll, and you won't have to fill them like most of the Pneumatic junk in the lower price ranges. I used to use that green slime, now I use run flats, the slime is great for one season, starts to get expensive year after year. Dragging an air hose to the XYZ, and filling it only really takes a minnit, but it just is not one of things in life that make me smile, more PIA frown.
Your reasoning for using the smaller can for throw out is a good one. I always think of my shop. 12' ceilings was a smart idea, me thinks. Always enough headroom for single person sized equipment. I knew you had a footprint limitation, didn't think to look up.
I did some "modeling" paper and pencil version, and if the footprint was 36" x 36" you could also use it as a tackling sled, and have a hard time knocking it over. Can you stand that sized footprint? I'm pretty sure 30 x 30 would work almost as well. So I think your sizing is just fine. For stuff like this I always overbuild, but generally I have plenty of room. I don't see it tipping, or being a tip hazard unless you cut the area it's on down significantly.
I think Oneida's stands might be more tippy, just due to weight. Looks like they are trying to go ultra low weight, which I imagine is driven by shipping cost, so in this case building out of wood is going to anchor you better I believe.
On my first DC roll around I made a double thick base. Used 2 sheets of plywood with a tuba4 frame. Inside the frame, and between the plywood I laid in a pattern of cheapazz paver blocks, simply for low low bottom weight. That sucker wasn't going to fall over EVER. Used a good quality 10" wheel and it tipped right up, and rolled wherever I wanted it to go. On my second one I started with just a base of 1 sheet 3/4" plywood, it also worked well, so I just saved some time, but using the double base would guarantee anti tip, and at that point it wasn't really any difference to roll around, provided you have wheels up to the task.
I will say, unless you’re going to somewhat anchor the cart, or the hose coming off it, their stock 4” hose is heavy and not very flexible. Of course this helps maintain pressure so it’s appropriate but, as you move it around, you’ll translate a fair amount of torque to the machine and the cart. I doubt it’ll damage anything, but it could make the tippy issue a bigger one to consider. I use a (too) long section of that hose in my overhead. I hung some brackets in the rafters and it lives curled up there, coming off a high-mounted gate. I grab the end and pull it down to attach to my planer and jointer when needed. I’ve bent two fairly sturdy ‘L’ brackets pulling on it. Like I said, heavy and stiff…
No bad mouthing the hose at all, it’s awesome, but it’s a consideration for your overall plan….
Actually, the more I’m writing this, maybe you want more freedom of movement in the cart to allow for an easier swivel if torque is applied via the hose? Just talking this out, but what about some 4” (6”??) castors, front and back, or something with a high degree of movement?
Ryan/// ~sigh~ I blew up another bowl. Moke told me "I made the inside bigger than the outside".
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